However, I wouldn't draft him in the Top 10 if I were a NFL General Manager. I would even have to think long and hard about the first round. Why?
It's not because of his overall talent level.
It's not because of his intelligence level.
It's not because of his throwing motion.
It's not because of his experience level.
It's not because of any intangible.
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No owner in today's NFL has the balls to put $150 million at risk by letting their franchise QB really run wild.
It's like having a Ferrari in the driveway and only driving it to church. It's stupid, but it's what NFL owners insist upon doing. Time after time.
As sure as the sun rises, his NFL owner and coaches will try and turn him into a flat-footed pocket passer by Year 3. The media will also talk about the need to protect him and run less. His family will talk to him about the need to protect himself. Everyone will encourage him to run less and less and less.
And with Young, you're paying Top dollar for him b/c of his legs. And remember in the NFL that top dollar drives what sort of decisions you can make regarding the rest of your team.
If there were an owner willing to let Vince be Vince and run the ball with authority while installing plays like the zone read or speed option, then yes I would definitely draft him #1 overall. This year.
As an NFL GM, you have to evaluate him based on what you're actually going to allow him to do. I personally don't think that he's a Top 10 pick without his running ability. Why pick a player that high and then not let him be the player that you drafted?
It seems like an obvious question, but it never goes the way it should with mobile QBs.
pwd
72 comments:
Good point. Vince Young could suffer a similar fate as Michael Vick. The Falcons rely heavily on Vick, but Vick is susceptible to injury due to his playing style. VY has the same problem. Trying to make VY less injury prone will affect his game significantly and it is very noticeable already with the way Vick has been treated. I like Reggie McNeal's ability to make plays on the run and in the pocket. VY can be inconsistent, but he's very clutch. VY's highest point was the Rose Bowl and he took Texas on his shoulders, but he has tried to carry the load before and looked bad doing it (Texas A&M).
When has Vince Young been "injury prone"? I don't remember him getting hurt and missing any plays in the last year or two.
Reggie M's a good college QB and that's about it. His upside is much lower than VY's (and I'm not Texas fan mind you).
NOt drafting Young wouldbe the biggest mistake if you need a QB. Vick brings in alot more money that your not mentioning, fans, season ticket holders, and souvenir sales. Remember, this is a business and if Young can win two games a year like he won the Rose Bowl it will be worth it for any NFL team who is presently in the crapper. Reggie Bush is all hype and once NFL defenses stop him from turning the corner he will fail.
I don't believe that Vick and Young should even be in the same sentence. Vick was known and is still known solely as a running QB. Since leaving college his accuracy numbers have been down, and he does not have the ability to bring his team back late in the game by throwing the ball. Granted his legs create more opportunities, but when the Falcons fall behind they have to rely on his arm, which has yet to win the Falcons many games. Aside from Young's throwing style he has the accuracy and ability to throw the ball. Along with his ability to mix in the run, VY could potentially be a very successsful QB in the NFL. Injury is obviously a concern of a mobile QB, but as mentioned before he has yet to fall victim to injury in college, and being 6'4 235 lbs, makes him less likely to be hurt in comparrison to a Vick
Daunte Culpepper, anyone? He's 6'4" and 260 pounds, bigger than both VY and Vick... and that didn't stop his ligaments from snapping.
Culpepper is probably a better pro comparison to VY than Vick is anyway... though he's faster than Culpepper.
I'm not sure he's a big-time NFL prospect either. The reason pro teams don't use QBs like Young was used at Texas is because the defenses are faster and harder hitting. Those running plays from the shotgun simply won't work. Take that away, which the pros will, and what do you have? A middle-of-the-pack guy who might make himself into an impact player and might not.
When I first read the title, I was like what planet was this guy on when the Rose Bowl was on. After reading section though, the points are valid. Whatever team that gets him is going to try and over protect him and not let him be the person he was in college. The NFL is getting softer and softer by the day. I know Dwayne Wade takes more punishment than most NFL quarterbacks. People always say Mike Vick is good but he can't throw. When you run a 4.24 and the ball is in your hands every down, I'll still take my chances. Thats like saying Larry Bird can shoot but he can't play defense. Everyone has weaknesses. But in my final opinion, the pressure is still on Bush and Leinart because they are Heisman Trophy winners and 2 time champions. And one last thing, I don't think Houston should draft Vince Young because players tend to work alot harder when they get drafted and have to be isolated from their hometowns. And i think everyone is forgetting that football is a full contact sport. You show me a player that has never been injured and I'll show you a player that doesn't need his uniform cleaned because he's probably been on the sideline all day
There are some excellent points made to the fact that Vince Young just will not prosper in the NFL. Dont get me wrong, he is an electrifying player with all the talents a college qb could want, but the fact is that no coach is willing to risk the spread offense and let Vince make descicions with the ball outside of passing it, and people wonder why the option does'nt work in the biggs.
i say he's the next akili smith...
OH that is just bull. Vince young is the leading passer in passing effeciency! He is a POCKET PASSER who can RUN. He is a mix of a phenomenal qb and leader with a good running back. 4.39 4oyd dash..
Are the Vince Young fans f'n serious. He is a great college player...no doubt. But have you noticed the difference between a wide open receiver in the NFL and in college? All of Vince Young's completions in the Rose Bowl were to guys who were WIDE open by high school standards. I went to VT during Vick's tenure and I can say that Vick looked like an accurate passer then too. Don't judge a player's potential by his best college game. Ever wonder why the heisman quarterbacks don't make it in the NFL? It is because the WRs that they throw to are so much more athletic that the DBs in college that cover them. Vince Young might make it, but not with that throwing motion and being picked high and placed on a team without any good receivers on it. He will suffer the same fate as Michael Vick.
I don't think VY will be a great pro. He's a great athlete, but in the NFL QBs need to be able to win a game with their arm when they have to. I know people will say that VY beat USC with his legs, but while USC has maybe 4 or 5 NFL-caliber guys on their defense, every NFL team has a roster full of NFL players that are fast enough to contain VY and force him to have to pass. Vick is a great talent, but no running QB has ever won a Super Bowl. One might argue that Steve Young is a running QB, but he never was successful until he also became the league's best passer. VY is a run first, run second, and pass third QB. This is his strength, but injuries will come his way if he plays like that every play.
I'm not really an avid college football fan but I did watch the championship game. First time I ever saw Vince Young. The guy was incredible, but everyone must temper their enthusiasm a little; he looked like a man among boys in the Rose Bowl. In the pros, it's the best of the best, and the defenses actually tackle and the coordinators will key on him.
Duck
People have been saying VY cant pass, he wont be able to run past nfl defenses, ect ect. Thats just absurd. Reggie bush got shutdown by the Texas defence. Just imagine when that defence gains 30 pounds and increases their speed..aka NFL. Bush is overrated. VY will be a better version of vick.
65.2% Passing
26 Passing Touchdowns
10 Passing Interceptions
163.9 Quarterback Rating
-AND-
He can run too. Don't stereotype him because he's a black quarterback. He's no Michael Vick, he is already a highly accurate passer.
"VY is a run first, run second, and pass third QB."
lol, did you watch the same Rose Bowl I did? VY threw the ball 40 times, and completed 30 of them. No interceptions, unlike Matt "The Pure Pocket Passer" Leinhart who threw one pick and a couple of ugly passes that should have been.
VY's passing ability may be a little over-rated to say the least. He has an OL that literally gives him all day to throw (as evident in Rose Bowl, where a very good USC DL never touched him). And having a good passer rating in college really doesn't translate that you are a good passer. Since we all love to compare him to Vick so much, check this stat, as a red-shirt freshman, Mike Vick led the nation in passing with a 180.37 rating, and we all know how that turned out so far.
VY's passing ability may be a little over-rated to say the least. He has an OL that literally gives him all day to throw (as evident in Rose Bowl, where a very good USC DL never touched him). And having a good passer rating in college really doesn't translate that you are a good passer. Since we all love to compare him to Vick so much, check this stat, as a red-shirt freshman, Mike Vick led the nation in passing with a 180.37 rating, yes, almost 20 points higher than what VY had this year, and we all know how well that turned out for Vick 6 years later.
Let's not forget how great a college player MV was. The guy brought his team to a national championship game too as a freshman and almost won. He did that with far less offensive talent than the one VY had around him. And do you really think VY is going to be running in the NFL the he did in the Rose Bowl against linebackers like Ray Lewis and Brian Urlacher?
This is not the 1970's people. BECAUSE of the fact that there are Brian Urlachers and Ray Lewises in the NFL on the defensive side of the ball, you need a big, strong, mobile quarterback like Vince Young. Pure pocket passers like Matt Leinart will be eaten alive in the NFL without a strong offensive line around them.
Michael Vick led D I-A in passing efficiency his freshman year with a phenomenal 180 passer rating. Obviously, those skills don't translate to much at the pro level. Young might have a better chance of succeeding as an NFL passer because he's taller and a better leader. Perhaps mobile QB's are the future, but I don't think that anyone will ever pass on giving a shot to a Dan Marino (ie, great, yet slow quarterback) type.
Vick is 6'0 tops and listed at a generous 215. Young is 6'6, 235 and if you ever see him in real life he looks likes hes 250 cause he is a monster. Vick is overrated but he has absolutely no speed to throw to so you can lineup a safety on slot receivers and fade routes to free up a linebacker or two to spy on Vick. In a couple more years the Vick argument wont even work when they draft/trade for a couple receivers. Now imagine Vick translated into a MUCH more poised pocket passer and doesn't go into kamakazee endzone runs. Vick was great because he was pure speed and was so much phenominally faster than any other college team he played. Young is great because he is fast enough to get out of pressure in the pocket and scramble but MOSTLY because that ability allows for one on one matchups downfields and across the middle. Ray Lewis and Urlacker will be caught in no man's land between pursuit and coverage. Plus, all the VY can't do it talk seemed to work out for him in the Rose bowl didn't it.
"Reggie bush got shutdown by the Texas defence"
Not a great shut out he run for 82yds (6.3 avg)1TD and receives 95yds.
82 + 95 = 177yds where is the shutout?
yea this was a pretty dumb article. VY is great, but to assume he can run all over NFL LB's and Safteys is very absurd. The GM wont be pushing for him to be a pocket QB, but opposing D's will be by all the hits he will take. If he turns out to be faster and elusive in the NFL then the GM and head coaches wont have a problem with it. Also he wont demand that much money, he is a humble team first guy. You obivously know nothing about the Texas program and the men Mack Brown allows to join it.
It is truly depressing to read all these "anti-mobile" QB comments. All these what ifs and what might be's. What if Dan Marino threw to sub-par recievers his entire career. Or Joe Montana, or Troy Aikman. All these pocket QB'S had something in common, talent catching the ball. I'm sorry to inform you clowns but, successful QB has or had help. How dare you idiots talk about scrambling QB' as if they are always a one man show. You will be the same people to give all the credit to a pocket passer, when the recievers score the TD's. You people make me want to puke.
It is apparent that everyone who believes Vince is a "once-in-a-lifetime" or "league-changing" type prospect knows nothing about the way the NFL works. You can't pin your hopes on a guy's feet when everyone is faster and more disciplined (i.e. they actually learned how to tackle somewhere along the line). There is a reason a so-called "mobile quarterback" has never won a Super Bowl (and don't cite the Elway/Steve Young BS because they were pass-first, pass-second, run-third guys) and it is because football is a team game. You have to be able to make the players around you better, and Vick sure as hell doesn't do that so what would make you think VY would? Pocket passers such as Manning, Brady, or (for those who like to make it a white-vs-black argument) Warren Moon can still throw a football when they are 35, while VY will have two creaky knees and a new NFL record for passes batted by D-lineman with that awful delivery. If I am an NFL GM, I trade the pick to some moron who thinks VY is the ticket to multiple Super Bowl rings and take 2 or 3 of his premium picks to build a FOOTBALL TEAM. Ask San Diego how well that's working out for them. New breed of quarterback my ass.
Another thing that should be considered when discussing a QB's potential success is whether or not the QB gets into the right situation. Obviously, some coaches have more success at grooming NFL QB's than others. Would Montana have been a hall of famer without Bill Walsh? Where would Tom Brady, a mediocre college player, be without the Patriots? If VY lands in a situation with players AND coaches who are perfectly suited to bringing out his best game, there's no reason why he can't be great at the next level. However, finding that perfect match is real tricky. Just ask Akili Smith, David Klingler, Joey Harrington, etc. etc.
You guys have got to be kidding me. Elway, Young, Cunningham were scramblers. Elway and Young won many games with their scrambling ability. Does the name Tarkanton ring a bell? As just about any GM will tell you, it's the intangibles that mean the most. A strong arm is good, but not needed (hmmmm...Montana). Heck, even Stauback had a weak arm, but he won a Super Bowl (and he was a scrambler). All that matters is does he know how to win, YES, does he make those around him better, YES, and does he crack under pressure, NO. Vick never won a National Title, and the one he played in wasn't even close. Let's just come back in about 5 years and see what happens. Until them, all arguments are mute...
So many of you miss the point. $100-150 million is a lot of money. Would you take your Ferarri to a demolition derby? Would you go off-roading in your Lamborghini? Imagine $150 million taking off for a run downfield and getting leveled by Brian Urlacher? Where's your investment then? Guys like Young and Vick will never be utilized to their fullest extent in the NFL, precisely because in the NFL, quarterbacks are team leaders, an investment that needs to be protected. That's life in the NFL..
David
IF Vince Young goes to the right team with a good coaching staff, he will lead that team to many Super Bowls. Reasoning? The NFL is changing.
One, look at the defenses. More and more defenses have changed from the traditional 4-3 to the 3-4 because its harder to get those big mammoth DTs and quick DEs (the colts still use this but how many dwight freeneys are out there?).
Two, Vince Young is a passer first not a runner. Many of you seem to forget that on the game winning TD, Vince went through his progressions THEN ran for the TD when no one was open.
Three, WRs and TEs can ALWAYS GET OPEN given enough time. The only problem is, the amount of time a QB has in the pocket isn't always enough. However, a QB that can move around and buy time will be able to find that open WR, TE, or RB even.
Four, leadership is all that matters. Look at Joe Montana and even Tom Brady. Neither was a high draft pick. Everyone said Montana was too short and didn't have the strongest arm. The knack on Tom was his weak arm as well. However, what we have SEEN from these two is their ability to WIN when the game is on the line. Everyone remembers "the catch" and Tom's magnificent game-winning SuperBowl FG drives. Well, VY did the SAME THING in the Rose Bowl, TWO YEARS IN A ROW!!!
Five, if you're worried about him getting killed with all his scrambling, think about how bad it is for the QBs that CAN'T scramble. David Carr anyone? I'd rather have a QB that can get away from a 300lb lineman and run out of bounds or SLIDE than a David Carr who's been the most sacked QB since his rookie year. Also, this helps you in cap room because you can spend money on better WRs and RBs instead of loading going all out on 5 linemen.
So call me crazy, stupid, naive, or an idiot, but VY should go #1, and the team that drafts him needs to make sure they don't screw up a sure thing.
I like the comment about Vince Young not taking that much money because he's a humble team first guy. Yeah right. Since when is wanting a lot of money considered a negative virtue in the NFL? And why is someone more of a team player or better person because he rolls over and allows billionaire owners to horde even more of the profit he should have earned while taking the hits? I'm sure VY is a great teammate, but the connection between that and him getting a fair stake as a pro is beyond me. His teammates will probably respect and emulate him for bleeding every cent he can out of the fat cats.
I want to start out by saying that Young's performance in the Rose Bowl was the greatest college performance I've ever seen.
However, I think that most college qb's could have made the throws he did if given the same amount of time he had to throw. What made the difference was his speed, which is good but not great. And good speed in college turns into only "above average" speed in the NFL. He's not ready to be a starting NFL quarterback. (If you don't believe me, go to espn.com and read what NFL scouts had to say.) He's needs to work on his arm angle, and, of course, learn to run an NFL-style offense.
Now, the comparison to Mike Vick is a interesting one. Young is taller than Vick and a natural leader, but Vick has both better speed and a better arm than Vince. And by better arm, I mean he throws one hard, tight spiral, whereas, Young's arm strength isn't very good.
Honestly, I think Vince Young has the potential to be a good NFL quarterback, but he could also be a complete bust. It's like when an NBA team drafts an extremely talented but unpolished player right out of high school (which can't be done anymore): the pick could turn out to be another Lebron James, or it could turn out to be a wasted pick (like most players drafted straight out of high school).
And here are some thoughts concerning what some of you had to say. (1)David Carr is a good scrambling quarterback. (I live in Houston and watched every Texans game this year except for one). Carr rushed for more yards than any other NFL qb besides Vick. (2)Reggie McNeal has a stronger arm than Young, and is faster than him(McNeal runs a 4.32; Young runs a 4.39) but is not as tall or big as Young. And (3) don't forget that USC's defense isn't very good. And by that I mean good, not talented. Don't ya'll remember they gave up over 40 to Fresno?
One thing that no one is considering is Vince Young's HEART and determination, and work ethic. I agree that right now he could not start an NFL game and do well. But he has a great will to win and wants to be great. He will do whatever it takes(hard work, adjust throwing motion, etc..) to become a great NFL QB.
I am a Texan fan and a HUGE Longhorn fan. That said, the Texans should take Reggie Bush, he will be a special player in the NFL also.
can vince young play undercenter is my question??? he takes every snap from the shotgun?? read option plays, speed options DO NOT work in the nfl. and i think linebackers in the NFL will kill vince young. yes he does run a 4.49 or whatever. but so do players like urlacher, brooks, ray lewis these guys haunt players like vince young just ask vick. also i did not see vince young make one throw in to coverage in the rose bowl. in the nfl you make 80% of your throws in to some sort of coverage. right now vince young is a man against boys lets see how he plays against other men. young=bust
Vince Young will go in the top 3. All this VY negativity is crazy! Vince Young's greatest qualities are his athleticism, his leadership, but most of all his ability to make the right decision faster than anyone else. He has great field vision. He knows his blockers, his receivers, his opponents tendencies. People act like he was hiding under a rock before the Rose Bowl. Vince Young did what he's been doing all year, taking what opponents give him. Also, what's this Reggie Bush and Lineart comparison? Bush and Lineart are both great players. The Texas USC game could have gone the other way. Lineart was moving the ball very well against the best defense USC played against all year. Most Texas defensive backs are future NFL prospects. Reggie Bush couldn't get his 300+ yards because Texas played a really fast lineup. They gave up some size for speed which made Texas a little weaker in the middle. That's why Lendale White was more effective than Bush. Bush still got away a couple of times. The reason Vince Young chose to run the ball against USC was because that's what USC gave him. If you don't think Vince Young's arm is respected just look at how quick USC and other opponents froze on his pump fakes and let him run right by them. When Vince Young learns the NFL the game will become like slow motion for him. That's a second or third year thing, but he'll be great and he'll be a winner. Houston would make a mistake by not choosing Young if only because Vince Young will bring the fans out in Houston. Just look at the Colorado game.
There shouldn't even be discussion on this guy. Let some genius GM like Millen give him his 50 mill and watch Arena football steal him for 50k 2 years down the road.
I have 3 letters that will describe Vince Young in 5 years or less MVP
Top 10 is kind of harsh but he definitely isn't Top 1-5 material. NFL defenses are going to be like nothing VY has ever seen. I'd take Leinart over VY in an instant. Plus look at the level of competition he's played against. Besides the OU game from '04 where he was completely shut down, to the Ohio St, Tx A&M, and SC game, this guy hasn't really been battle tested against top notch talent. If they are going to draft this guy just for potential and what he displayed in one game, then DJ deserves to be a top 15 pick. DJ has a better arm and may be just as fast as VY. All of this VY talk about changing the game is BS.
chad said
Vince Young is plan and simple a winner.Everywhere he has played he has won from prep league to college. I dont think you could have a better leader for your team.How much confidence would he give the rest of his team just knowing he can do remarkable things on his own. Ive heard the lines about defenses are stonger and faster in the NFL but doesnt that mean Reggie Bush will be hampered by the NFL defenses too. When was the last time a running back led his team to a Super Bowl? Go with Vince if you want a leader. And by the way he had the 3rd highest passer rating in college, so much for all the negativity about him not bieng a good passer. The Lions never reached the Super Bowl with Barry Sanders and he was the greatest running back of all time.
ALL THE HATING IS UNNECESARY I BET HALF YOU KNOCKING VINCE HASN'T PLAYED FOOTBALL SINCE YOU WERE RIDING THE BENCH AT JUCO. GIVEN TIME VINCE WILL ADJUST TO THE SPEED OF THE NFL JUST AS HE DID DURING HIS FIRST YEAR OF COLLEGE. KEEP IN MIND HE COULD POTENTIALLY BE DRAFTED BY THE TITANS WHOSE OFFENSIVE COORDINATOR IS NORM CHOW FORMALLY OF USC SO WHO BETTER TO DEVELOP AN OFFENSE SCHEME TO FIT THE STYLE OF GAME PLAY OF VINCE YUNG BETTER THAN THE FORMER USC GENIOUS. HE WONT BE A FIRST YEAR SENSATION LIKE BIG BEN BUT MORE OF A CARSON PALMER TYPE EMERGENCE WHEN HE DOES BEGIN TO PLAY IN THE LEAGUE
For everyone mentioning VY leading the nation in passing efficiency... please read this quote from the Va Tech website,
"Led the Division I-A ranks in passing efficiency (180.37)."
Thats Mike Vick there. Passing efficiency is the most overrated stat in the world. I'm not saying VY won't be good in the NFL; I'm just saying don't quote PE as a reason why he will be and why Vick isn't good. (Vick's efficiency that year was 17 points higher than VY's this year).
Also as for the last comment about Palmer, VY will never be the type of passer palmer is. VY will be effective from day 1 because of his speed and determination, but the tradeoff is that will that drop off in passing be small (say Hasselbeck) or large (... Vick). WORST CASE scenario you have a guy who wins you ballgames... but loses you some by his limited throwing.
I hear a lot of talk about not letting vince run in the nfl because he might get hurt. And yall are right in that owners wont let the coaches let their prize investment run. However, rb and WR all run around and get tackled and some get hurt, others dont. From my experience watching football, QBs get hurt worse when hit in the pocket then when scrambling. Just ask Palmer or any other QB hit while standing in the pocket to make the throw.
If the internet has brought us anything, its provided a stage for thousands of people the oppourtunity to voice their opinions and be heard. This is unfortunate. Why does anyone pay attention to some defunct football "genius" ranting in his basement. Vince has proven he is the best player in college football, and there is not anyone that comes close. Everyone is of course entitled to their personal opinions, but if you do happen to disagree with this, then you are wrong. First quarterback ever to throw for 3,000 and run for 1,000 more. He was more clutch than any football player has ever been in the history of the game. Where do you get that he is "injury prone" exactly? He has Dante Culpeppers size, Micheal Vicks speed, Brett Farve's arm, and Tom Brady's cool. Not taking Young on the first pick will be the biggest mistake the Texans will ever make.
As has been touched on in a few posts already, great NFL players achieve that status because of the intangibles they possess AND the team situation in which they find themselves. Did Brett Favre establish himself as one of the best college QBs in the nation? No. Would he have cracked the starting lineup, let alone become a future HOFer, if Atlanta had not traded him to Green Bay? Who knows. And how many "great" college QBs did not enjoy continued success in the NFL for whatever reason? Quite a few more than not. That is not to say that Young will be a bust, just that the track record for highly touted prospects is poor. He may well end up on the right team and have the necessary skills and intagibles to make it, but no one can say for sure. And the fact that Vick has taken such a beating in first few seasons of running will give plenty of GMs pause before they invest top pick type money in a guy that is going to take a pounding. But my biggest problem with this entire discussion is that it is the result of ONE game (and a masterful game he DID play). But even if he had an average game (win or lose), no one is having this discussion and he is probably back for his senior season at Texas. If he is as "can't miss" as claimed, where has this argument been for the months leading up to the bowl game? Again, he may well end up being a fantastic NFL player, but it will certainly be a while before he can live up to the orgy of hype created as the result of one contest.
can the race baiting crap. find another place for it.
both of you.
Paul Westerdawg
Admin
I don't want to offend anyone, but whoever said that stuff comparing Young to Favre and Vick has no idea what he is talking about. Vince Young is comparable to Culpepper size-wise, and I don't mind you comparing his "cool" to Tom Brady, but saying he has Vick's speed and Favre's arm is going too far. Young is nowhere near as fast as Vick, and no sober NFL scout in the country will tell you that Young has an arm as good as Favre's. It's not even as good as David Carr's. The guy who made these comparisons is either extremely bad at evaluating talent, or he has never seen Vince Young, Mike Vick, or Brett Favre play in his entire life. I don't mind people expressing their opinions, even if I disagree with them, but if you're going to post a comment and make those kinds of comparisons, please do some research. Read espn.com, or SI, or Fox Sports, even try watching a football game or two yourself. Nevermind. Forget everything I just said. Your post had to be a joke. That's the only thing that could explain it...
Greatest cluth player ever... Ha ha ha. You almost had me there.
Very interesting comments by everyone! As a Saints fan, I know that we'll very likely be debating the Vince Young/Matt Leinart decision both up until draft day and then for years and years to come once the dust has settled and the better player emerges.
I find it interesting to hear people's comments about Vince Young being a one-game wonder. BEFORE the Rose Bowl, I was already contemplating which way I'd prefer the Saints go on draft day -- Young vs. Leinart. AFTER the Rose Bowl, the scales tilted in favor of Young because he took the team on his back, carried them to victory, and looked like a true leader. That said, if the Saints opt to take Leinart instead, I'll still be happy.
I think truthhurts' comments are okay... he's just expressing an opinion, but is in no way making disparaging remarks about other races. He's merely commenting on the human tendency to commiserate most with those who are most like you. I wouldn't, however, restrict this to race. Religious, socio-economic, tribal, and other differences also come into play. This is why we have wars, bombings, terrorism, protests, fish sticks, etc.
I think (and pray!) that these attitudes are changing as we move towards a more global culture, but it will certainly take time, time, and more time. Hey, wait... when did this board become talk radio? My bad!! I'll shut up now. ;^D
One thing that I found particulary interesting among all these comments, in particular among the comparisons, is that nobody has compared VY to succesful scramblers such as McNabb or Randall Cunningham.
VY might develop in a clone Vick or in a new version of McNabb. And for this thing, only the intangibles matters. The only thing we can hope for VY, is by whoever he's drafted, he will find a coach who plays system well-fitted for him, and in a franchise which will let him enough time to devellop. For instance McNabb has only played for Andy Reid, and I'm not quite sure, he would have had the same success playing elsewhere.
Let's assume VY goes to the Titans with the 3rd pick. He will probably find the best possible situation. He will play under a coach who has been there for 10+ years, in a team that is trying to built for the long-term. Remember that even with back-to-back disappointing seasons Fisher has never been considered as being on the hot seat. Plus, he will be mentored by a QB who was drafted with the same type of expectations, by Fisher,who used to be a NFL MVP, who played in a SB, and was a scrambler too.
So, to sum up, it only depends on where VY is headed, and I'm pretty sure that if he falls to Tennessee, 3rd overall, in 3 years from now he would be at leats a very good starter.
I don't think Vince Young has done anything so bad that you can guarantee that he will fail in the NFL. Scrambling/Running QB's seem to always have a little predjudice undertone to it; not sure if it's because they are different or because they are usually black. If you disagree you aren't being honest. Matt Lienhart is also a susseccful QB and has to make the same leap into the NFL from "college" but why is he such a sure bet, and Vince Young not? There is a place for a QB that is mobile(especial one that can decipher a defense) and run/pass at the most advantagous moments. Speed has changed every position in the NFL over the years...QB is actually the last one going through this modification, and it will go through it successfully. Mike Vick, Vince Young, Joe Schmoe who runs a 4.3 are the precursors.There will always be room for the possesion receiver, short yardage back, and a pocket passer, right? But if Jevon Kearse can run a 40 yard dash in 4.5 seconds why wouldn't it make absolute perfect sense to have a QB that is agile or can run a 40 yrd dash in 4.4 seconds. I'm not on the band wagon of Vince Young but you would have to be a fool to not wanna give him a shot on a NFL field just as you would to not give Matt Lienhart a shot. I don't think he will run for 200 yrd and and pass for 300 in the NFL like he does in College, but I can see him scrambling for first downs on a regular basis..which might net him 650-800 yards a year. He has the same chanllenge as any other QB as far as passing, he need to learn to read NFL defense disguises...and he seems to have a general understanding of the QB position. I read that he had numerous 300 yard passing games in high school....see years ago the fast guys where always thrown into skill positions or choose them because of the glory, now there appears to be value in speed at the QB position. You guys love speaking of the greats like Marino, Elway, Montana, and Brady even...would they have been any worse if they could run like the wind?
The implication that any of the NFL's great "traditional" passers (Marino, Montana, and so on) would have been even better if they could run shows a lack of understanding of the development of an athlete. Dan Marino is generally regarded as the most mechanically sound passer with the fastest release anyone has seen to date. Is it then a coincidence that he was one of the most immobile QBs to ever play the position? Almost all of the great passers have not been the most mobile at their position while they played. The converse is true of the scramblers. Michael Vick is a HORRIBLE passer because he has never HAD to be one until now. In high school and college he could rely on his legs to put up points. Pocket passers are better at throwing because they HAVE to be. They are usually only a second or so from a fracture or concussion that they are unable to evade. An interesting exacmple of this is to look at Mark Brunell's college career at UW. He started off as a scrambler with a weak arm and poor accuracy. Once a knee injury forced him to stay in the pocket more, his passing skills developed and made him into a serviceable NFL QB. Whether a thrower or runner, the vast of majority of QBs are that way because they are not asked to or cannot do the other until they get to the NFL. And as far as race issue goes with scramblers, I have yet to hear anyone mention Drew Bennett or Matt Jones (both WHITE scrambling college QBs that are now NFL wideouts). Speed is speed no matter the color, and it is ALWAYS more useful for RBs and WRs on offense.
You make a good point...atheletes will always compensate there weaknesses with their strengths. But what you've said isn't science. We've witness in baseball with Canseco, Bonds, Strawberry, and even Rickey Henderson that power hitters can also be base runners(something we din't have with Babe Ruths and Reggie Jackson's)you can develope hybrid skills and do more then one thing well. Look at the new big men of basketball being outside shooters and ball handlers. I wouldn't bet the house on Mike Vick or Vince Young, but there will be a day when we look at the fact that a QB has scrambling ability as a virtue. I already do...3rd and 8 ...you have a QB that can find and open reciever and if one isn't available, skate for the eight yards...maybe even turn it into a 35 yard TD!!! That is the future whether you like it or not.
......and your right we didn't hear any comparisions to Matt Jones or Drew Bennet...only Akili Smith and Mike Vick when speaking of scrambling failures???? I wouldn't call Randle Cunningham's career a failure and he was a scrambler/passer? In fact Cunningham was co MVP of the NFL 3 times. Pased for 3400 yards and ran for 940!!! He never won the big one, but neither did Dan Marino, Dan Fouts, Warren Moon, Jim Kelly and a list of about 1000 other pocket passers? But Jeff Hosetetler did? Jim Mcmahon did? Trent Dilfer did it? My point is you don't even have to be Marino status to play good ball. Also When Montana won his second super bowl mvp he threw for over 300 yards and he also ran for 60 yards in the game. I remember John Elway winning a superbowl MVP he threw for over 300 yards, but he also ran for a TD! It just a guy like Vince Young is even more dangerous then your average when he brings the ball down. I think he would be a morom to bring the ball down with 3 wide open receivers picking grass in the endzone, but thats not the case is it? He shredded the number one rank college in the USA whether he was running or passing. So their is nothing else to prove to haters but that he can survive the NFL...the guy has ability it's not like one of us trying to play in the NFL..I don't see him being eating alive no more then Eli or Harrington was this year. There are some innovative OC's that are dreaming up an offense where they imagine a guy like Vince Young would be almost unstoppable.... If the NFL had 32 scrambling QB's I'm willing to bet that one of them wins the superbowl!lol! in fact if they had 10 of them, I bet 1 would win it.....scrambling is not a weakness, maybe only being able to scramble is though. And that isn't the case of Vince Young he's passed 65% 26 td, over 3000 yds!! If he hadn't ran for over 1000 yards he would be considered a deceit pocket passer by most standards. But you guys act as if he is god awful and I wonder what's the motivation???
hybrids don't work. Professional football is a game of specialisation. Job of the QB is to pass the ball and lead the offence, running is for RBs who can be switched in and out of the game to recover. That's it and still is it in the professional game. Scramblling is a last resort and usually a sign of weakness - you're receivers couldn't get open/you're running game sucks. That's why MVIck's career been huge disappointment: inaccuate passer, prone to injury and defences have his number on the scrambling. Right now I see VY's career as similar to MV. That's how I call it, others can have different opinion.
a. QB was a position for pocket passers
b. successful scrambling QBs have so far all been athletic fast runners
c. therefore success/failure of VY discussions have one huge elephant standing in the middle of the room that no one really wants to mention, and that's sad
Well I"ll mention it for you to read before this post is deleted: he's black, he's black, he's a big proud black man playing whitey's traditional (and only high profile) position. Did that ever cross your mind at all? No? OK nevermind. Back to my sandbox I go.
"Hybrids don't work" a rediculous statement that was..Tiki Barber, Marshall Faulk, Edge James and Ladamien Tomilson are all new age running backs that have abilities or a reciever they all are average or above average at picking up blitzes, running inside or outside nothing had to be sacrificed because they have the abilty to slide out into the slot and catch a 15 yd pass...in fact those players have accounted for nearly 2000 yds a year each whether it's 2000 yards rushing or recieving, 2000 yards is production! The chess game that coaches play becomes a lot more complicated when they have hybrid players...Your pawn can only move one space, but mine can move 5 backwards and fowards. You're a fan..the professionals will never ever turn down a player with multiple talents....And if the recievers are not open which happens to ever QB at some point. You rather your QB not have any other options but to take a sack, force a pass, or throw it out of bounds, but as long as he never ever runs; because that's only for RB's; right! Unless you coach the dream team you would go 0-16 buddy. Every QB that can juke a DB is compared to Mike Vick right now, but please believe it gets better then Mike Vick. There are no rules in life or player ability...you can be 5'10 or 6'4 or 185 or 245 and still find a way to be effective. Jump out the box Jack!
That is it! white men can't jump and they can't run....and we don't want blacks to start throwing; then what do we have? When they find that atheletic QB that works in the West Coast offense he will probably be unstoppable...then every team will want them a fast, fleet footed, atheletic brotha...and it will be only be Peyton, Eli, and Carson left for us to fell proud about! Can you tell me what ever happened to the Larry "God Damn" Zonka's". I ain't seen a white running back sense Meril "freaking" Hodge. He was like Hayzues in cleats. And look what happened to the point gaurd position in basketball...what are there like 3 white point gaurds now! it isn't fair! That damn hammering Hank! you know he started all of this..lol And now Tony Dungy might win a Suber"freakin"bowl, but at least he won't do it without Peyton!!!! Yes!! You know Peyton coaches that team..yeah he picks personal and everything, and I heard he gives a motivational speech that could make a fish cry! LOL!!!! You hit it right on the head...There is a lot of pride connected to the white race when it comes to that QB spot and if a brotha wants to play the position just throw the darn ball..don't do all of that fancy juky juke stuff...lol!!!!
Love you all Kristian KKK
Racism is so American! It's almost become non- threatening to even speak about. I would imagine Whites have pride in their sports heroes like Blacks do...But at the end of the day we all will have something to be proud of... it makes me smile win I see a black kid wearing a Wayne Cherbet jersey and a young white wearing a Mike Vick Jersey... A hero will always be a hero... it because of their human experience which some case is thier racial experience... I'm rooting for Vince to be a success. If for no other reason there seems to be so many rooting for the guy to fail. I guess I always root for the underdog...And if the future has 32 atheletic Black QB's in the starting line up. I'm sure I'll be rooting for the slow white guys to make a come back..Just my way of balancing the universe. The the momentum change and lets let life be interesting fellas.
..love the stats guys. I haven't got a freakin' clue what anybody's pass completion % is or was, ever - y'all college boys got too much time on your hands?
You never know who is going to be any good coming out of college. Most of the QB's in the NFL aren't even 1st rounders. I do belive Vince Young will be a great QB but you never know. Running the ball can get you hurt or standing in the pocket and a big lineman rolls into your knee can hurt you i.e. Carson Palmer.
I think that is shows alot that the posters on both sides of the race issue are the least literate on this thread.
lol.
pwd
who ya callin illiterate? what da fick does "I think that is shows alot" mean?
I love how every couple of years we all hear about the NEXT scrambling QB that is due to come out of college and how he will "revolutionize" the position in the NFL. Some even generate that buzz with their first couple of years in the league. It all started with Tarkenton, but didn't really go anywhere. After a long break, Cunningham was the next ultimate weapon that ultimately didn't have the skills to dominate the NFL according to that plan. Culpepper and McNabb were the next generation to come along, and we were told that while they outstanding passers, they would win just as many games with their legs. Has anyone in the last couple of seasons seen either of them take off downfield more than a couple times a game? Vick was supposed to finally be the real deal, but we can all see how that has worked out. The best part is, I can guarantee that these same comments will be made in 50 years when the league is still dominated by drop back passers and a couple of young scramblers "threaten to redefine the position". McNabb and Culpepper, unlike Vick, are highly skilled passers. But early in their careers they also ran the ball on occasion and effectively. What happened to that? Did their coaches tell them not to because they thought it was unfair to the defense and didn't want to run up the score? Or have the players realized that NFL linebackers hit a lot harder that most of the guys that never make it out of college football? The NFL has been and always will be dominated by drop back passers (barring significant rules changes to the game) for two reasons. First, QBs take a lot more physical abuse when they take their game outside the pocket. And second, every team must have the ABILITY to mount a comeback from being down quite a bit on the scoreboard. And, you can only do that by passing the ball. Sorry Vince, but you're not going to end up being the guy that changes everything. That is always reserved for someone farther down the line...
What is dominating the League mean? winning 18 super bowls in a row??? Barry Sanders "dominated" the league and didn't even win a playoff game? So go figure...Culpepper had a troubled season in 06. But he passed for 4718 39 TD last year...and he can run when ever nessesary. That's domination the league. That's what changing the position is! Just that a QB has that option. We aren't getting excited about a QB that we want to see lead the league in rushing. Just one that can run as an option. it wouldn't be exciting to see Brady's arm and Ladamiens leg's on a player? Not if it's a black guy...But the world and canada loved watching Doug Flutie do it!!! I did too!!! Cunningham was not a failure... Since all you fools do is watch the game, just sit back and enjoy the show that kind of QB puts on... Football was invented well before the foward pass anyway, so a little scrambling is actually oldschool... Evolution is happening infront of your eyes...Culpepper, Mcnabb, Mcnair, and now Vince are not delicate dudes...I've seen some people hurt when trying to tackle them!but sure they hurt ankles and pull hamstrings..Big sturdy offensive lineman do that!! What the hell do guys want these guys to do FLY?!!!! Win 7 superbowls in a row?!!!...before you can say a guy is a good player?! If Trent Dilfer, and Brad Johnson can be on a superbowl winning teams...Randle Cunningham, Steve Mncnair,Daunte Culpepper and Vince Young sure as hell could be... It's so stupid to say a scrambling QB will never win...Most of them have been in the playoffs so they have managed to be good enough QB's to win games for the teams they play for.Duh!? And it's not like the coaches coaching them had enormous creditials either, but you blame the QB's ability, not the suppoting cast(the weaknesses of the team), Not even the coach!!! Buddy Ryan sucked..I guess he would be a winner if it were not for Randall lol!!! Give me a break. Bill Walsh would have coach Randall to a superbowl I bet, Shananhan, Bellichick:) and Parcells... It's not like when they've bench the scambler, or he was "Hurt" i.e. Vick...the teams start winning like the Yankees!!!.. So these discussion are like science experiments without a control and test subject. What if there was genius coaching behind an "Atheletic" QB? Then maybe we would be able to appreciate the full potential of what a QB could be if he "could pass well from a pocket" as well as exploit a defense with his running ability". You might start seeing some NFL games look like that USC game...lol I have seen Randall look like that in an NFL game...you guys must have forgot!!! NFL films where are you!!!!!!
And who ever said running will replace passing as a QB funtion...they can coexist...that's what every one wants to see!! What you guys don't?
I think Mcnabb stopped running because Rush Limbaugh called him a "Black" QB.. I think Mcnabb is ashamed of running now(plus his foot was broke last year, and his chest this year..Not from a result of running, but just being plain ole sacked.), white guys in the media have set it up as if he is a "Black QB" for doing that...it makes these guys ashamed to do what they do ...because white QB's don't it like a black QB and that's no secret..So all the black QB's got a point to prove instead of just playing their games...I say do it all.. You don't see Peyton running to prove that he can...and Big Ben is quick to take off(watch him) Ben is my favorite dude right now..he just comes across like he does what ever is nessesary to win a game, and thats what I like to see...
vick does need to step his passing game up..He would be superstar status if he ever does...everybody knows that...but I can't call Vince until he throws at least one NFL pass you suckers!!! But he looks damn good throwing in college??? That's all i have to go off right now...but you guys are going off all sorts of intangibles....It feels like Vegas up in here. History has said that running QB will be hurt will do this, will do that. Well history also says that 9/11 wouldn't happen...You fools can trust history and the past but I'm looking out for the future..recent history has told me to do that...lol
Almost without exception, NFL QBs will take off and run on occasion simply because that is their last option. I watched Drew Bledsoe (DREW BLEDSOE!) run over 15 yards for a first down this year when all his options were exhausted. Anyone who has seen Marino play has seen him sneak out on occasion and gain some much needed yards despite poor running skills. The point that is being missed is that the Steve Young/Elway/McNabb model player is as far as the postion will ever "develop" under the current rules. Michael Vick has already made a fine case for that argument. QBs SHOULD be dangerous beyond just making all the necessary throws. But, a QB that runs a significant amount is nowhere near as dangerous as one that CAN run and does so at critical moments or when it is not expectd. THAT is what made Elway, Young, and McNabb so feared, and why no one gives the same respect to Vick.
And as far as Rush Limbaugh's comments go, they were not critical of McNabb's STYLE of play in any way. He was merely of the opinion that the media (and the league marketing execs) over-hyped McNabb's skill levels SIMPLY because they were interested in seeing a black quarterback succeed. The merits of that opinion of debatable, but don't confuse what was said with what you thought you heard.
Yeah I was a Randall fan too!! I would love to see another guy like that. People don't realize it but Randall has better numbers passing then guys like Terry Bradshaw and he has more career rushing yards then Mike Alstott... Another Randall would be all I would want if I drafted Vince.
Yeah I heard what Rush said and he's not on trial here even though I think that his statement was saying Mcnabb hasn't exceeded the standard that the white QB has set so he was no Jackie Robinson" he was being celebrated for being a above par player why even bring his color into it? Joe Nammoth was a more ordinary talent and was more celebrated in his day... Now you. close your eyes....and think of a black QB...doesn't he scramble? You don't think there is a sterotype/stigma involved with a scrambler? Of course it is...and yes if Vick ran when they didn't expect it he would be ALL WORLD...but first he would need to train the defense to expect pass! then they wouldn't know what to expect from him...It does get better the Elway because the ability of the runner...ok Elway knew when to run but he wasn't as dangerous as Dante Hall when he decided to run...that's where the imagination gets captured with the scrambling QB...Vick has also shown how dangerous he can be don't forget...you guys have short memories, but I still think he's getting better and I think there some younger guys coming up that have his game and are modeling themselves after him and probably want to be him with out the weaknesses... So if you are going set the standard at least set it as high as Randall Cunningham. 3400 passing 942 rushing.
When you listen to a Rush Limbaugh type of comment you have to know that the man knew he was going to be testing the waters when he even mentioned race. This was not politics, just a ESPN football show...why even make people think about race...then it triggers thoughts of black player not being able to eat in resturants, hate mail, death threats saying we will hang you if you break that record....It was just to heavy to bring in the mix...but I'm sure if the guy had an open forum he would have a lot to say about the "Black QB"....it might not have been negitave either...but like someone mentioned there is an elephant in this room.
Steve Young is the greatest of ALL TIMES!!!
If scrambling doesn't work...Why is my record 86-16 online.
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