Move to the 4:45 second mark to hear Tim Brando discuss the call at the end of the LSU game (ht - Catfish and Cornbread). If you can't access YouTube via work, here's a transcription of the conversation that Steve Patterson of UGASports.com put together.
“The rule absolutely has to be abolished. Not changed. Just get rid of it...What Brando appears to be talking about there is the issue of race. Tim Tebow has never been flagged by an SEC official for celebration; yet, Tebow dances around like an idiot after every two yard run both drawing attention to himself and pandering to the crowd. When LSU scored their first touchdown their offensive linemen were gesturing to the UGA student section and acting wildly on the field celebrating their TD without flag.
...There are more of these called in the Southeastern Conference than any other league in America, and I am going to tell you because it is up to the discretion and judgment of the official that I think now that the politics of the community...of the area are going to be called into question. You don’t want this to happen, because if we take this conversation where we could, it is not going to bode well for the Southeastern Conference.
So first and foremost in the off season they've got to abolish it.
“Rogers Redding, who is in charge of the SEC officials, had better tell his officials 'you had better cease and desist on calling them so quickly.”
“They don't want us to go more in-depth on why the SEC is throwing more. I am telling you, it is a conversation, I don’t want to have it, my friend Spencer does not want to have it, and I am telling you, watch out, because people are going to take a closer look at this and it is not going to bode well for the league.”
Am I saying the issue really is race? I believe that Caucasian players rarely get flagged in the SEC no matter how excited they get. I've never seen it. Have you? So is Brando right? Or is it simply a situation where UGA is still being punished for the 2007 Celebration in Jacksonville? Either way, I don't care. Enough is enough.
Living Under an Oppressive Regime
I'm generally not a conspiracy theorist. But Georgia does live under an oppressive officiating regime. The current SEC Supervisor of Officials is Rogers Redding (Georgia Tech class of 1965). The prior Supervisor of Officials was Bobby Gaston (Georgia Tech class of 1948). The Chief of Officials for Saturday's game vs. LSU was Marc Curles (Georgia Tech graduate). (Ht - HacksawDawg). And for good measure, the play by play man was Al Ford who wrongly announced that Jasper fumbled.
Let me just ask you this....would Kentucky ever allow the head of SEC basketball officials to be from Louisville? Obviously not. Yet, we've had a Tech man running the show for the SEC since 1988. 21 years is enough. Is there not a competent official from Iowa, Texas or hell...American Samoa.
PWD
(BTW -- It is outrageously inappropriate to email Curles at his place of business about his performance as a ref. If you have an issue with the officiating, you should contact Mike Slive via letter or email.)
53 comments:
That's a damn good point, Tim. I always thought refs were just worried about a reaction from Meyer when it came to flagging Tebow's unnecessary taunting. I mean, he did spring straight from Jesus' head, fully formed in pads.
Brando's point makes a lot of sense. It would be interesting to see someone go back through and look at the racial issue by watching the games for the past couple of years and charting the penalties. I have a feeling it'd be closer to 50/50 than Tim thinks, but it's still an interesting idea.
Never thought of the race angle, but who knows what other politics are involved.
I know the refs didn't lose the game for us. Our inability to tackle in the last 1:07 did. But it certainly CHANGED the game for us.
I've never gone from such an emotional high to an emotional letdown in my living room re: a football game in my life. I felt deflated after the loss.
What does it mean for UGA? What does it mean for the season?
The fact that we're unranked is also laughable. Oklahoma's losses are worse than ours, and their wins have been silly. Yet they're still Top 20 with a 2-2 record.
Gross.
Other UGA fans at other sites were crying about something Les Miles did after the game. What did I miss?
SEC officials are the worst officials in the country. I seriously did not realize that it is a bunch of guys from Tech.
That explains a lot.
Great stuff. We've been discussing it over at David Hale's blog. Its about time some light is coming forth on this subject. I'm not saying the refs cost us the game Saturday, but they HAVE to stop controlling so much of the game with their "judgement" calls.
Can you imagine what would happen if an Auburn man were the head of officials?
No, because the SEC simply would not allow it.
Gtu is seen as innocuous to younger folks because they are not in the SEC. But Gtu was in the SEC until 1963, when most of the culprits you mentioned were still in school.
There must be some ramifications for the obvious retaliation that has taken place against UGA since the 2007 WLOCP. It is borderline criminal.
When are refs ever held accountable? Never. Never. How does Al Ford still have a job? How can that be?
Wow, I'd never even thought of the race angle. I guess when I think of a white guy scoring a TD and celebrating in the SEC my mind immediately goes to Tim Tebow and we all know you can't throw a flag on the Chosen One. He intentionally draws attention to himself in the huddle on the sideline, much more when he scores. The only call worse than AJ's celebration penalty was the one thrown on Charles Scott - he pointed up to the sky and ran to the sideline. That was the most obvious make-up call that wasn't even close to a make-up call I've ever seen.
1) How many white guys score TDs in the SEC?
2) I agree that what started out as a necessary rule has morphed into something that is a killer. The rule states some specifics, but there is way too much leeway. The Charles penalty was just as stupid.
3) PW, leave the conspiracies to the "truthers" and "birthers". It makes you look silly. Most of the penalties called against UGA are "earned".
4) This overshadows that UGA still has no clue on kick offs or that the D played a hard nosed game. Giving up yards, yes, but no points (I can live with that).
5) Bobo is the whipping boy this week. However, I will come to his defense on some things.
a) He had some very good plays called early in the game but Cox missed pretty easy throws. Whose fault is that? If a receiver gets open the play call has to be pretty good (aside from something odd like a defender falling down).
b) Maybe the issue with the running game has been less the line than the backs. Ealey comes in and gives quite a lift. This is a promising sign.
c) not much you can do when you start from the 1 yd line after Boykin makes a bonehead play (trying to run that interception out of the deep end zone).
6) Ealey brings up something else however. Who makes the final decision on playing time at RB? With the running game going poorly, it seems like he should have been given a shot earlier. Other big time programs start and/or play freshmen without hesitation (USC and Michigan started the season with true freshmen QBs for instance). If a freshman can play, play him. Richt, et al should have learned this lesson from Moreno and Stafford much earlier.
7) Cox is frustrating. The first half was as bad a QB half as I can remember. It reminds me of some of the post-Belue (pre-Zeier) QBs. Then he looks like Joe Montana late in the game. It is awfully hard to pull 2 game winning drives in less than 3 minutes. I doubt Elway, Favre or Montana ever had to do that. That said, I say let's see what Gray can do more regularly; heck, I would like to see one of the freshmen QBs get some snaps as well. I cannot believe the UGA offense is more sophisticated than Michigan's or USC's and they are playing true freshmen QBs.
The refs were pieces of vomit. AJ didn't do ANYTHING to draw a flag.
But hell, if he "called attention to himself"...they damn well better flag Tim Tivo the next time he does the chomp.
Great point Paul. I completely agree there is a "stay in your place" mentality going on with these officials and it really is upsetting. Damon needs to be on Mike Slive's ass all week. The crew who did our game should be suspended for at least a game or two. Not just for the call they made against AJ, but the call on Charles Scott. It was the most obvious make up call I've ever seen, and officials should not be trying to equalize games by calling penalties for infractions that did not occur. Its unbelievably unprofessional. What a joke.
The uncompensated athletes of the SEC are making a lot of people very wealthy. The least the league can do is provide these guys with a chance to compete with a fair and competent officiating crew.
It worries me that our coaches seem to fear allowing freshmen to play.
It either means that they are too dumb to coach or our coaches are too dumb to coach them.
Either way, it ain't good.
Bringing the interception out of the end zone was probably the dumbest thing I have seen a football player do all year. Instead of signaling him to stay in the other Georgia players should have tackled him.
Tebow does that f'ing Gator chomp ALL THE TIME. He even does it while looking at opposing teams' fans.
Is that not drawing attention to himself??
What a f'd up double-standard.
That and the polls.
Just looks like everyone loves to hate Georgia. I don't get it.
Man, Ealey looked like Knowshon reincarnate.
CANNOT WAIT TO SEE HIM THIS WEEKEND!!
I hope King and Samuel enjoy the time on the bench. They were given the shot for 4 1/2 games and couldn't do what needed to be done.
Give Ealey a chance.
Can we really say the ref did not cost us the game? I honestly don't know.
People are so fixated on how bad certain issues are for the team that they are justifying a bad call that cost us the game by saying blah blah blah..
It's almost a fair point to say that LSU had the same penalty and overcame it better than we did.
"Almost" because if the ref kept the flag in his pocket after AJ's touchdown, the odds that we're even talking about LSU's next possession go down considerably.
I don't think either call should've been made, but ... the call on Scott was at least somewhat legitimate. After watching the replay, it sure seemed as if he engaged in an obvious (albeit it very brief) taunt. And that's at least in keeping with the way other officials around the country have been interpreting that rule.
The call on Green, though, made absolutely no sense. And I don't care what anyone says. The 15-yard penalty contributed to our yielding the sort of field position that allowed them not to have to pass the ball. Give Holliday the same return, but 15 yards further back ... and now LSU has to pass the ball. Could they have still gotten into field goal range? Sure. But would it have been a lot harder than simply running the ball a few times. You bet.
That game could have been 28-0 at half. Hats off to the defense! LSU is a pretty good team who got lucky in the end! 2 losses within that 5 game stretch I am okay with it...The polls are ridiculous! They obviously don't watch the games. I hope we get fired up for UT, they scare me with how desperate they are right now.
Why is it necessary to have so many GT people involved with a UGA game? It's not like there aren't crews that don't have GT connections.
In most professions, not even giving the appearance of impropriety is just as important as anything else.
Another question is do UGA admin and coaches go along with this?
Losing this weekend sucked. Being in the stands and feeling that emotional high to the incredible letdown was tough. You can't say that penalties cause you to lose games. On the other hand, if Greene isn't penalized, we probably hold on to the victory because of field position.
In my personal opinion, neither Greene nor Scott deserved the penalties they got at the end of the game. You could make an argument that the call on Scott was a "make-up," but that's a tough pill to swallow as a UGA fan, because AJ's penalty was directly involved with the loss, make-up call or not (not the cause of the loss, but a large factor).
And I think Brando is alluding to a good point -- why don't white players (Tebow or any other) get flagged for celebrating? I don't think it's necessarily direct racism (i.e. automatically throwing the flag because the player is black). However, I think, for whatever reason, when a black player begins celebrating, it is much more likely that it comes off as showboating to the refs. I can't give a good explanation as to why the refs think this, because it is a double standard.
In spite of this, my encouragement to my fellow Dawgs is that this season is not over by any means. Yes, the loss hurts our morale and we lost a little pride because we fell out of the rankings. But as far as affecting our goal (which I hope was to win the SEC Championship), it had a minimal affect. Whether we won our lost to the LSU, we still would've had to beat Florida, because it's highly unlikely the Gators will lose two SEC games. Now, its true that if we had beaten LSU & Florida, we'd have the luxury of one more slip-up (i.e. Auburn), but if we have the talent and determination to beat Florida, we can win the rest of our SEC games.
Now, I am in no way saying that we will go on to beat Florida, win out in the SEC and win the Championship game. Does this team have the talent to do so? Yes. Will it? Very likely not.
But for you optimists out there, there's no reason to lose hope. No reason to cry woe are we and Music City Bowl here we come! If this team gets its act together, like it did in '07, before Saturday, we will be in even better position to win the league than we were that year. Rankings, shmankings. If we keep winning, we'll be back in the top 25. And maybe this drop will light a fire under our boys. Who knows?
Take heart fellow Dawgs, it's still great to be a Georgia Bulldog!
Let's say that call isn't made and UGA kicks off normally. Now we all know that means LSU starts at least on their 35, but maybe we would have kicked it into the endzone and they had to start on their own 20. Stop snickering, I said 'maybe'.
From either their 20 or their 35, are they running the ball at the point? I doubt it. Sure, they could have scored with their passing game, but we could have gotten another sack too.
It changed the game.
Brother, it's all about race...and I'm a white dude. Tebow isn't the only issue. Pollack was a nut on the field and never got called for celebration after all his antics. It's not so much the race as it is a misunderstanding of culture. The rule was put in place to suppress a misunderstood culture because most of the refs haven't spent much time w/ 19-year-old African-American kids. And it's kind of scary that's coming to light. Hopefully...HOPEFULLY...this will cause the SEC to revisit the whole thing and the NCAA to just do away with it. Don't taunt. Don't jump up and down for 3 minutes. It's seems easy enough.
You could have always done something to overcome calls, but that's not the point. You played terribly and found a way to make a play. How different is the '02 Auburn game if we get a penalty after MJ's catch? Auburn was down by 3 w/ 1:25 to play. That would have changed everything. More than anything, it took the wind out of a stadium that was going bonkers. If we're kicking off at the 30 and (even if they return it 40 yards to their own 40), that place is going nuts, and I don't think they get 25-30 yards because they would have had to have passed and that's the last thing Jefferson wanted to do. When we lined up on the 15, the stadium had an air of inevitability.
We made the play we had to make...and it didn't matter. Not blaming it because we could have still stopped them, just sayin'. It was bigger than huge. Let's hope the SEC spends all season trying to make up for it in our games.
I'm sitting here at work with fans from other conferences, and they have NO IDEA about the call against A.J. Green.
That's disappointing.
If it had happened to Texas, Florida, Ohio State, or USC, it would still be front-page news, the NCAA would be releasing statements, and people worldwide would be crying.
I feel so unimportant.
The officiating was a disgrace.
Our coaching is a joke.
I don't mind losing to better teams, but I sure as hell don't like being out-coached.
There is no way we beat Florida. Our players are not disciplined enough and our coaching staff is too inept to put a good game together for a full 60 minutes, which is exactly what we'd need to beat UF.
I'm starting to realize that this team may very well finish 8-4 just like the "experts" predicted. And THAT's assuming we beat either UF, Auburn, or GT.
I'm really curious to see what the aftermath of the poor officiating will be. Especially for the UF/LSU game this weekend. Will the refs be warned by the SEC not to make such quick judgments on celebration penalties? Or will the refs be told to be consistent with their calls in UF/LSU game so as not to seem biased for this past game? It would be interesting to see a celebration flag against Tebow in order to get this point across. Either way, the rule is a joke and the refs need to be shot.
I think it's a little early to cry racism, but I think the SEC owes Georgia some answers. Why doesn't Tebow ever get flagged for far worse transgressions? I think if Damon could put together some video evidence and force the issue with the SEC, Georgia might get out from under the the itchy trigger finger SEC refs have had for them recently.
But in reference to PWD's question: "Is there not a competent official from Iowa, Texas or hell...American Samoa."
I'm not sure about American Samoa, but I've seen Big 12 officiating and there are certainly NO competent officials from Iowa or Texas. Refs who have never heard of offensive holding and who call 15 yarders on hits that seem nasty but are perfectly legal would be far more dangerous than what we have now.
PWD says we should email Mike Slive. I'm all for that, but how do you email him? Does he have a complaint email that I don't know about? I think every disgruntled UGA fan should have the right to send him an email about this call, but I see no way to do it if he doesn't have a public email address.
sUGArdaddy...the rule was put in place because it had gotten out of hand, pure and simple.
Taking off the helmet, rehearsed group end zone dances, miniature Lambeau leaps, gang signs, throat slashes, crotch grabs...it all contributed.
And there needs to be something to stop certain things.
By the definition they showed Saturday, there really should be a penalty called on every play.
The race issue is deeper than comparing calls by white SEC refs against African American players with non-calls by the same white SEC refs involving white players. It also involves the issue that white eastern refs don't make those calls against African American players, that Big 10 refs don't make those calls against African American players and that PAC-10 refs don't make those calls against African American players. The white SEC refs may be entirely colorblind, but the problem is their standard as to what is excessive is much stricter than anywhere else, and puts the SEC refs in the position of facing the implicit question Bando was asking.
The rule wasn't put in place to suppress any culture. The problem the rule was designed to affect was that it was poor sportsmanship for the future NFL stars at Miami, for example, taking their helmets off and drawing attention to themselves after catching a 5 yard pass in the 4th quarter when leading Northwestern State or Montana State 55-7. That isn't the circumstance when Green catches a go-ahead TD pass against the No. 8 team and nods to the crowd.
Anybody remember Tre Smith's somersault into the end zone after scooping a blocked punt against UF in 2006?
Our Special Teams made me puke on some boy scout at the game on Saturday.
The supposed strategery is that he had our defense (plus Logan) out there for every f-in punt in the 2nd half to prevent a fake. This after he watched our offense rip, roar and rage for 81 total yards at some point in the 3rd qtr. Has Carlton Thomas been abducted by aliens? If not, maybe he could be used to field a damn punt. A 4th string RB would be better than our 2nd string QB.
When CMR was coaching Donnan's players, punt return was an area of huge production (deciding factor vs UT 01?) as was punt and FG blocking. And now....WTF.
If Fabris isn't the most deficient coach on the staff, Searles can't be far behind. Our O-line (which was supposed to be nails) looks as bad as the 93-94 Goff years.
Why can't Carlton Thomas catch punts?
Why doesn't our staff know that tropical weather from the Gulf ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS blows west to east so that they can property instruct captains on coin flip?
I'm not ready for a 6-6 season.
Anyone who doesn't think there's not still an element of race that pervades through the game hasn't been paying attention.
How many times have you heard announcers rave about a team's 'athleticism?' Especially when that team's quarterback is 'athletic.'
How many times have you heard an announcer rave about some kid who's 'plucky,' or 'gritty?'
Yep...good call on Tre Smith. I still think it's a misunderstanding of how kids have fun...so it's made every official over-sesitive. It still can't understand how you can dunk on a fast break and look into the camera and pound your chest and that's okay, but taking your helmet off is bad. I'm not for taking the helmet off, I'm just saying that basketball seems to have a totally different standard.
Rick's point is huge. Will the aftermath for LSU/UF be to enforce like never before or backoff? By the way, I'm sure that top-five matchup of undefeateds will get better ratings than a team coming off a loss would have...just sayin'
By the way, Tim Brando needs to make friends with the cameramen, so that he is never, ever shown from behind.
John Parker Wilson was called for this penalty last year, methinks.
illegal block at the 2:50 mark on the video. The block was on boykin at the top of the screen
I don't think its got anything to do with race, Georgia's been getting screwed by officiating for years and the last time I checked we don't have any more people of color on our team than anyone else.
He was called for the phone call, but that's an obvious gesture to the crowd and focus on the self. It's the joyful celebrations that seem to slant the other way.
By the way, not that I'm e-mailing him, (and I respect PWD immensely), but totally disagree that it's inappropriate to email Curles. If he doesn't want the public interfering with his work life and private life, then go sell insurance and stop collecting those weekend paychecks. He is a public figure by HIS choice, and therefore open to public ridicule. It comes with the territory. When the SEC is getting the kind of money it is from CBS and ESPN, then every coach, administrator, player, and ref is open to criticism. If you don't want that, then go ref in the MAC and you won't have to worry about it. This is big boy football, and fans shell out a lot of money to see a fair product.
Fans shouldn't threaten a referee, of course, but I totally think it's within their rights to tell him he's a lousy ref and has it out for Georgia, and that includes on the way out of the stadium and in the booth at Chili's. One of the biggest problems we've got going on now is that these refs have no accountability. All this new $$$$$$ from the networks is going to ratchet up the pressure on the coaches and players, the same needs to be true of the refs
Anyone who says the celebration call didn't matter is crazy, it absolutely did. Even with all the Three Stooges football UGA did in the first half, that call changed the dynamics of the game. It mattered.
Why is Cox still quarterbacking? Why hasn't a freshman seen some snaps? Please someone, tell me.
you are an idiot if you think race is involved.
yes the penalty gave them 15 yards but nothing more. we should have stopped them. thanks willie
The race angle is interesting, and bonus points to sUGArdaddy for the David Pollack reference. There were numerous times where I was furious with him for dancing, showboating and acting like a complete fool (including soaring around the field in the 2002 SEC Championship Game and knocking an Arkansas's player facemask intentionally that would have resulting in an ejection for, say, Boss Bailey).
I'm not convinced it's race, but it's something I probably wouldn't have equated to this discussion.
Why is Cox still quarterbacking? Why hasn't a freshman seen some snaps? Please someone, tell me.
Because he's better than the other three QBs right now.
Also, 'Mike & Mike' on ESPN2 devoted 10 minutes to the call, and it was a point of discussion during ESPN2's morning programming.
I do disagree with this ...
By the way, not that I'm e-mailing him, (and I respect PWD immensely), but totally disagree that it's inappropriate to email Curles. If he doesn't want the public interfering with his work life and private life, then go sell insurance and stop collecting those weekend paychecks. He is a public figure by HIS choice, and therefore open to public ridicule.
There's no reason why he shouldn't get criticism, but there's ample reason to disagree with where that disagreement is displayed. Swamping his work email with this won't mean a thing and is terribly inappropriate.
If you sell insurance and somehow do a lousy job at it, you don't call up your broker at home and heckle him. You go through the appropriate channels to express your displeasure.
Having written a column in both sports and politics, I'm perfectly content to get criticism if it's directed in the right way. However, you start hollering at me with my kids in public, and we're going to have some problems.
THIS IS EXCESSIVE CELEBRATION
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-qccCuL4nQ
WTF!!??
Not saying race is or isn't an issue, but Tebow takes his helmet off all the time and never gets flagged for it.
I'm not sure I'm ready to go down the race card road with this one.
My hope of what will come from this is a much more disciplined, straightforward team that plays with zero emotion but with the skill and precision of assassins. Imagine how awesome it would be to see the Dawgs tear through the rest of their schedule with zero emotion and total focus just to stick it to the officials for calling something like this.
Of course, now, that would call for a level of focus not seen in Athens in a long while, but I think it would be incredibly fun to witness.
This is sad. I am ashamed to see our fans sit and moan about a call that had little to no effect on the outcome of this game! Has everyone completely forgotten about the first 3 quarters of this game in which our offense was unable to move the ball at all? Please tell me that you have more to bring to the table today than this utter garbage! How about Cox looked terrible? Maybe our 2 starting running backs are unable to find a hole? What about the o-line and their lack of run support? I know, the kicking game once more.
(BTW -- It is outrageously inappropriate to email Curles at his place of business about his performance as a ref. If you have an issue with the officiating, you should contact Mike Slive via letter or email.)
Well said, and good move at taking that link down.
Only an idiot would think calling/emailing a ref at their place of business (or home) is anything short of harrassment. There should be legal recourse against anyone stooping to such behavior, imo.
Concerning Tebow, it isn't a race issue, it's a Florida issue. Florida has become Duke of college football, where the double standard with regards to officiating is so egregious that it's almost comical.
It's not just Tebow. Their DB's taunt the entire game, doing the gator chomp after every pass breakup. Remember Spikes taunt of Moreno last year? Urban is 10 yards out onto the playing field at any given time. The SEC has a set of rules for Florida and a set for everyone else.
"AwesmeDawg", you are wrong. The Bulldawgs played well enough to win the game. They had a lead late in the game. To say that call had "little to no effect on the outcome" is plain stupid. Sorry.
I can't believe it took this many years for this angle to come up. It's been evident for years. The old guys in the stripes just don't like that culture, and they say it with flags, and it shows up on the scoreboard.
One kid pumping his fist or skipping? That's fine. Another kid bobbing his head or walking funny? No sir, I don't like that stuff. Fifteen yards.
I have to agree with Yodi.
"Awesomedawg"?
You are nothing of the sort.
Apparently, you have forgotten the first three quarters where LSU couldn't move the ball, either. Cox played pretty well in the second half. Georgia took the THE LEAD with that TD by Green, only to be screwed by that bogus celebration penalty. After reading your post, I realized you are obviously a youngin' who knows little about SEC football.
pretty sure Jesus was flagged twice last year... once verse us in Jacksonville and once verse FSU.
Devil's Advocate:
Bunch of white guys : "I don't know that we should jump to this being about race, surely it's not that -- not in this day and age, not in this sport run by old white guys..."
I went to Middle GA College with Marc Curls prior to him going to GT who was the head offical of the LSU/UGA game. I told my wife when I saw the call that he has been in the middle of too many controversial calls that went against UGA the last several years. I would like to see if there is any scoring or rating of SEC officials by game and see how he and his crew rates.
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